Pip and Destiny talk terminology, queer art, and She-Ra. Joined by the poetry of Phoebe Wagner.

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Please note this episode contains discussions of biphobia, bi erasure, compulsory heterosexuality and homophobia. There are also spoilers for She-Ra. 

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Host Bios:

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Destiny Adeyemi (they/them) is a poet. They are a Slambassadors 2018 Winner, a member of The Octavia Poetry Collective and was in the 18/19 Barbican Young Poets programme. They live in London performing at local open mics and poetry events. Instagram/Twitter: @poetryndestiny

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Pip Fenton-Cripps (they/them) is a non-binary creative specialising in the field of East Asian and Japanese Studies. They were awarded the Frederick Richter Memorial Prize for Meritorious Work in the field of East Asian Arts, Music and Literature in 2019. Pip is also a digital artist, exploring synthesis of classic shōjo with darker elements. Instagram: @hello_cactus_flower

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Guest bio:

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Phoebe Wagner (she/her) is a poet and theatremaker from Croydon. Her debut poetry pamphlet 'The Body You're In' was published with Bad Betty Press in 2019. She runs Crep Project, an arts collective that explores trainer culture with young working-class people. Instagram: @crep.project

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Produced by Arden Fitzroy (they/them) @ArdenFitzroy

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The RISE Collective 

Website: www.therisecollective.org.uk

Twitter: @RiseAmplify 

Instagram: @therisecollectiveuk

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Music: Pembroke

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Links and references: 

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Two Twos podcast. Instagram: @twotwospodcast

Patrick Hemington, artist. Spotify/SoundCloud: PATRICIUS Instagram: @pxtricius

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Transcript:

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Arden: 

Everybody welcome! You’re listening to the AMPLIFY podcast, brought to you by The RISE Collective. We champion creatives and build collectives at the forefront of social change. I’m Arden Fitzroy, Lead Producer, and this is Queer Joy, the second series of AMPLIFY. This series was created by the next generation of creative leaders and changemakers. These are our own stories, on our own terms. 

Destiny:  

Hey, and welcome back to the second episode of Creating Dangerously with me, Destiny.

Pip:  

Me, Pip. I'm super excited for this episode to be honest because we're talking about all things queer. 

Destiny:  

Yes, this is a topic very dear to our hearts. So the both of us will be enough. Think of this as an extended artistic check-in.

Pip:  

Yes, yes, yes, we're hijacking this entire operation, queerness is super important to me. And I felt like it's been pretty big in your life too Destiny.

Destiny:  

It is. But don't worry, we'll still be giving you some amazing work from an amazing LGBT artist Phoebe Wagner. Born and raised in London.

Pip:  

Oh yes, people who know me know that I'm a big fan of Phoebe.

Destiny:  

But let's start things off by saying the scene of our queerness by talking about what we both identify with, the terms we use, and why.

Pip:  

Yes, as queer creatives in London, I think it's a great place to start. Personally, I'm a massive fan of the term Queer. Like, I know that as with a lot of terms, when it comes to identity queer is very contested as a label, and it holds a lot of different things for a lot of different people. So I think it's really important to respect that for some members of the community, the term is triggering. But for me, a gen Z, who came out like a decade ago when I was 13. Queer acts is a really nice broad shortcut to let people know that I'm anything but straight and cis without having to get super personal super fast.

Destiny:  

Honestly, I agree with your last point because the vagueness and conciseness are really helpful. I like the labelsenby and bi but I mostly use queer because it's easier not having to disclose all of my intersections of sexuality and gender. I just don't really have to explain. And I also appreciate the political nature of it.

Pip:  

Yes, the political nature of it is really liberating in some ways. But also in other ways. For me, it just feels right. Like I said, I came out like a decade ago, and I've spent a lot of time trying different labels out and trying to settle on what felt right. And you know, first off I identified as a lesbian, bi, pan, but queer is the one that feels the most comfortable in everyday situations. When I'm with like, other queer people, you know, I'll go like enby lesbian, I feel that you know, I love the, the I love this the way it sounds, I love how it works for me, but I'm not always in the mood to have a conversation with with every straight cis person to tell them how I can be nonbinary and lesbian.

Destiny:  

Nonbinary and lesbian yeah!

Pip:  

 So these are it's just, you know, so queer is just like, yes, I'm gay. Shut up, leave me alone. You know? And it does. It does also feel like when you use the word queer, you make old conservative people uncomfortable by reclaiming the term, you know what I mean.

Destiny:  

lol yeah,  I get what you’re saying, and that is always a good thing. But how do you and your gender and your pronouns really fit into this?

Pip:  

Well, in terms of gender, I think, you know, we both discussed last episode that we we both use they them pronouns, and I identify as non-binary. But I did just want to throw it out there for some people listening that people who use they them pronouns aren't necessarily non-binary, and some non-binary people, use she/her, and he/him or neo-pronouns. For me, it's all about feeling out the spectrum, finding the space that I feel most comfortable in, you know, and, for example, I am non-binary, but I actually really, really like it when my girlfriend calls me her girlfriend, it feels so overtly queer to me, like we're both very femme presenting. So it feels like a statement of the very gay fact of our relationship, you know, it just makes me happy. I love the overt gayness of the term girlfriend. And I don't know it sits well with me. I'm not a big fan of partner, but what about you D like in terms of your gender and your sexuality like because they are very distinct things like how does that fit you?

Destiny:  

I think that like I also really loved your point about like cis people using different pronouns because I think that is really important in like detaching the notions of like gender and pronouns. But I think I'm completely different because I love using partner like being referred to as a partner it just feels like there's something theatrical about it like we're two queer cowboys against the world!

Pip:  

Yes, campy as shit! Yes, I love the image of you and your partner in full cowboy getup, pistols, whips, the whole shebang, Destiny, imagining you in chaps and cow print is something that I didn't know I needed. But if Halloween comes around and we are out of lockdown and I don't see it.

Destiny:  

Very disappointed…

Pip:  

 You can catch these hands by all means.

Destiny:  

Honestly, I love that. Like, I think it's important for me to like find language that fits and feels affirming or give me euphoria even if that means checking in with myself and changing.

Pip:  

Yeah, well, I mean, people never really stopped growing and changing. And it's cool that you've embraced that in your exploration of gender and sexuality, you know. And, like, for me, I tend to look to you Destiny is like a creative role model in some ways. And I'm kind of curious about how gender and sexuality fits into your identity as a creative like, if at all.

Destiny:  

The key thing that fits into my creativity, that I think I learned from gender and sexuality is exploration, and being open to not being fixed at any point in time, especially because like, I think my nonbinariness will probably get involved a bit later on, because it's quite fresh. It's quite new. It's quite nascent. And I'm still quite vulnerable with it. But—

Pip:  

 Trust.

Destiny:  

In terms of my journey with like bisexuality, I think that's pretty much taught me to just not think that I'm any one thing for too long. And like, not feel like the things that people forced onto me are the things that I am. What about you?

Pip:  

You know, I don't really know. Because I think I think that I was very resistant for a very long time about letting queerness play any kind of active role in my life. And that included, you know, the types of things I chose to study, the types of things I chose to do, I was very resistant to joining queer groups. And I haven't fully unpacked all of that yet, or why that is, but I think it's so much of it is a lot of compulsory heterosexuality, a lot of internalised homophobia, a lot of internalised transphobia, that I'm still, I'm still having to work through, you know, and it's tiring, it's hard. It's, it's difficult to be confronted with your own problematic behaviour. But I'm really grateful that you know, I have people in my life that are willing to confront me with that behaviour and be like, Yo, this thing you're doing, like, I'm not trying to shit on you, but like, this thing you're doing is like not right. And I think you would benefit from doing XYZ and it's always so helpful. And, you know, and that's something like for people listening, like, even if you're part of the community does not, you know, it does not automatically absolve you of being problematic. 

Destiny:  

 Yeah.

Pip:  

 So I think, because I've never like really, until recently, and this is through a lot of validation that you've given me Destiny, and because I haven't, like really identified with my with my creativity is something that I'm allowed to own. You know, like, I can say that I'm a creative I can say that I make things. Okay, we've been making a podcast, that's creative. Yeah.

Destiny:  

Definitely

Pip:  

But I never let myself have that, you know, it was always like, I just do this. I draw, drawing my whole life, but it's like, I just do it. It's not me. I'm not good enough, whatever. So I think like you were saying with your gender like it's still super, super early days for me. 

Destiny:  

Yeah.

Pip:  

 Despite the fact that these, so I think I haven't claimed that yet. You know, but it's an exciting journey. And I like the community. I love engaging with it. I love seeing gay people thrive. Now that we have done that! Now that we've done that I think this is a perfect time to lead into our second ever, artists' check-in, a segment on Creating Dangerously where Destiny I check in on what we've been getting up to, or seen in the art scene, since our last episode.

Destiny:  

We're very, very excited. This pandemic has meant a lot of catching up and absorbing queer media.

Pip:  

Yes. Oh my goodness, I've had the opportunity to binge not once, but twice. Noelle Stevenson's, She-Ra. I'm currently rewatching the whole thing with my mom. No, I can't explain to anyone how much I love this show.

Destiny:  

Oh, it's so sweet that your mom's watching it too. I'm a massive She-Ra fan. It's engaging. There are some seriously interesting takes on redemption and queerness.

Pip:  

Yes, yes. I remember when you were talking to me about it. And you were saying about how it deviates from the like Christian idea that to be redeemed you have to be punished. Instead, it allows for like, a more like an emotionally healthy and functional exploration of how to forgive people and how to give people space to grow. Yeah, become, you know, not the villain but the friend.

Destiny:  

But how's it been watching it with your mom? 

Pip:  

It's been really nice. You know, it's been a really nice opportunity to normalise some of them more queer parts of my life for my mom. Because you know, it's a lot to take in for her. She she's just she's trying. But it's definitely been really great having the non-binary character Double Trouble who is an icon, honestly, as like, a great role model in terms of like showing my mom how effortlessly everyone can use the correct pronouns whether that, whether that be the good princesses or the evil horde, and she's genuinely so invested in the show and the story writing but she absolutely hates the horse. 

Destiny:  

That is a resounding criticism. 

Pip:  

She will drag that horse through the mud, any given opportunity. Oh, genuinely close to calling PETA for animal cruelty claims.

Destiny:  

When I say I love Double Trouble. Like I love how theatrical that character is, and their voice by genderqueer person, Jacob Tobiah. And the way that pronouns are used, honestly, like speaks to this wider issue of people misgendering bad trans people and bad non-binary people like Double Trouble does bad things and helps the bad guys, but misgendering is never used as a tool to scold them.

Pip:  

Exactly. And it's so refreshing. Like, I love how characters gender and sexual identities aren't used as narrative devices in the show as well. They simply are, they are characters in the show, and they live their lives, they have their arcs. They're a representation of the diversity of human or humanoid in the case of the show, experience and identity. But Noelle doesn't essentially use these characters down to this. They fall in love. They fight, they have families and friends and personal struggles just like any other cis, straight characters on TV.

Destiny:  

Yes, and the characters are really dynamic and well rounded. I felt that with another show that I was watching Wonder Egg, which is a short anime. It's new, so I won't be spoiling anything. But the characters are really interesting. It looks beautiful. And the way transness is explored was very different.

Pip:  

In what kinda ways?

Destiny:  

I think it showed me a lot about like, I'm dating while trans and like being a young, trans girl, and just like exploring life and having a friendship group and like navigating the difficulties of that. But what have you been loving media-wise in the pandemic?

Pip:  

Well, I mean, besides She-Ra, I'd been comfort watching a lot of old favourites like Steven Universe, Adventure Time. Marceline and Bubblegum were the OG sapphic representation for me when I was like 13 and started dating my first girlfriend, I remember watching them and being like, am I Marceline or am I Bubblegum? Which one of these two characters?

Destiny:  

That’s so cute.

Pip:  

It was so fun. I still do that with my girlfriend now. Like we send each other like, little like, we constantly send each other Bubbline fan art. Like "I miss you". It's why we're super gay. I can't, I can't and there's no excuses. There's no excuses for this awful deviant behaviour. Um, and, you know, like, I really, I really appreciated that as a kid. Like, even though it was very minimal. As soon as I found out like being on the internet that, like canonically they were ex-girlfriends later to be together canonically it helped me so much, like so much more than I could even at the time, recognise but it's, you know, even though the team at the time, really had to tiptoe around the sensors on Cartoon Network, the amount they push the boundaries of what people thought an animated show for kids could explore, has just carved out space for shows like Steven Universe, and She-Ra wrote that took representation from covert to overt and really allowed us to have open quite openly represented queer characters and kids media today. Like I really, really, really wish I'd had more stuff like this when I was a kid. I'm always extremely grateful that kids today can access that.

Destiny:  

Let's talk about some of the queer tunes we've been loving. I think one person I've loved for a while is Janelle Monae of course a pansexual Queen. Some of the new things I have been listening to you are Rina Sawayama and Karnage Kills. What about you?

Pip:  

Oh, I love Rina Sawayama. Oh my god. I mean, the same with someone I've been listening to absolutely love them Jay Som. Another person I’ve been loving? Jay Som, I love Mitski.

Destiny:  

Oh, yeah, she's amazing.

Pip:  

I mean, are you sapphic? If you don't like Mitski I start to question things. And Raveena. 

Destiny:  

Oh, yes yes yes. She's amazing. Her NPR is like beautiful. The Tiny Desk concert is so good.

Pip:  

Oh my god. And have you seen I think I sent it to you the video for headache? 

Destiny:  

Yes, yes. It's beautiful 

Pip:  

Queerest thing I've ever seen in my life. She is loving all up on this person. Very, very, like I don't know their pronouns. They're a bit, very femme presenting, you know, like sapphic deal going on there. And they are just, Oh, my goodness.

Destiny:  

 Stunning.

Pip:  

We cannot ignore. We cannot ignore the Queer Queen who has recently finally gotten the attention that she deserves Arlo Parks!

Destiny:  

 Arlo Parks!

Pip:  

Arlo Parks I have such a crush on Arlo Parks. And honestly, you could not stop bringing her up. Have you seen her? 

Destiny:  

Yes. Yes. Yes i have,

Pip:  

Oh my god. 

Destiny:  

Just amazing.

Pip:  

Oh, I you're speechless.

Destiny:  

And she's a Londoner!

Pip:  

And she's a Londoner. Oh my god, I love listening to her voice, oh, my God, the fact that like, I need to take a moment to recover myself. I've been thinking about Arlo Parks too much. There's something about you know, their lyrics that are just so poetic, so beautiful. And hearing someone singing about queer love in a way that isn't and talking, I don't know, just like the way like, they sing about like 'Eugene'. You know, singing about being in love with your friend, but they're straight or they're dating someone else. And 'Green Eyes' about thinking, you know, like thinking about like relationships you've had with people who they're not out to their parents or they are out to their parents but their parents aren't accepting. And just that, that hearing that representation of heartbreak and the complexity of queer relationships, and these are things that I've heard in straight songs, but like, I hearing it and knowing that I can directly relate to that experience. My days. So good. And yeah, really, it's been it's been a fantastic few answers for the queer community in terms of like music because lest we forget, 'Montero/Call me by your name' Lil Nas X.

Destiny:  

I love the music video. The snake, in the beginning, is disgusting. It does make me feel a bit eww.

Pip:  

My god, oh my god, whatever they did to his lips. Whatever they did to his lips.

Destiny:  

No idea. But he really he really did that he really did that. It was really, really good.

Pip:  

He really was like COVID 2020 I don't need any other people in this music video it’s just me.

Destiny:  

 Just me and the devil. That's just it.

Pip:  

Me and the devil. And I love the absolute gall of releasing it two weeks before Easter. 

Destiny:  

Yeah, it was bold.

Pip:  

I was gagged. 

Destiny:  

It was bold. It was very bold. 

Pip:  

And then releasing shoes to go along with it. Seeing pastors vehemently discuss satanic Nikes. It's something I didn't know I needed but I'm so glad I have.

Destiny:  

Oh my gosh. It was it was something it was wild. I I did not know that. That's That's how 2021 will be. But here we are.

Pip:  

It's been it's been a good month. Yeah, I mean, I think this tends to be the case in a lot of places. But big cities tend to be epicentres of queer culture. And London really is no different.

Destiny:  

Yeah, I found so many places around London have like really helped me to understand my queerness and just foster great communities.

Pip:  

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, I always find that art can be such an amazing vehicle to understand the more subtle forms of human experience like queerness, like gender, like sexuality. I think it really is a way to make the complicated internal world poke out for a second and make it real in the material world. And there's definitely no shortage of queer spaces in London if you know where to look.

Destiny:  

That’s so true. And it's just like connecting to other artists work and feeling a little less lonely. We need more of those spaces.

Pip:  

Dude, I mean, I'm still so mad that we never went to one of our mutual acquaintances. Queer poetry nights, like I'm thinking back to pre-Rona Pip, and just like kicking them for all the events they missed, just to stay at home and watch Netflix. And that's literally the only thing I've done in the past year.

Destiny:  

Honestly, we should have gone like it would have been so good. And this pandemic has me looking back at like, all the events I've missed, just like No!

Pip:  

Dude, especially because everything's online now. And it's just a completely different feeling. Like, for a long time, I feel like I didn't attend a lot of queer-focused events, or really explore the queer scene very much because like retrospectively, I can see that I was really trying to figure out my gender. And I had a lot of internalised homophobia and transphobia going on. And the most I did for ages was go to She bar in Soho, which, you know, I've got to say, is a really nice space it's the first club I ever went to where I felt safe. I feel like we had this conversation the other day about She bar. And even just like the layout of the place, feels like it was made specifically like with queerness in mind, or at least with like, by like, queering the patriarchy and like queering the male gaze, where you don't really have a lot of spaces to sit on the sidelines and gawk and there isn't a very open plan, like dance floor area. So you aren't, you don't feel like you're on display, which is what I felt when I went to a lot of clubs that were more straight focused, where you kind of have like the centre where all the quote-unquote, like women or women presenting people dancing, you have like the men like kind of lurking on the corners, like, oh, by the sticky walls with their shoe stuck to the floor and stuff.

Destiny:  

I love that thinking about how architecture kind of influences and informs a space. I think like, obviously, people when they think about the queer scene in London, they think about Soho, central East London. And yeah, historically, that area has been a really queer space for queer culture to grow. But there is so much more all over London. I recently read about Pearl Alcock, a black bisexual woman who owned a pub, The Brixton Fairies in the 70s.

Pip:  

Is the pub is still around?

Destiny:  

No, no, it's not. But you can hear about like other lesbian nightlife and clubs on the TwoTwos podcast, it's an amazing podcast like I am an avid listener of and they have a lot about like lesbian nightlife clubs, pussy palace, just amazing spaces.

Pip:  

Yeah, I have anxiety disorder, and it's just hearing you talking about those makes me want to go out.

Destiny:  

 I love that.

Pip:  

 I miss going out. And you know, I mean, speaking about the lack of spaces for other members of the community, you know, outside of predominantly just the G in the LGBTQ because I'm gonna say this now there's not that many lesbian or sapphic spaces that  I've come across spaces.

Destiny:  

Especially fixed spaces. Yeah.

Pip:  

 Right. It's always like, it's a it's a gay space. And you're welcome to join. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you feel welcome or safe in those environments. And I was, yeah, like I was thinking about the fact that this is something that the queer community kind of experiences, especially like in London, that there's really only a couple like lesbian bars and lesbian clubs that are left, you know, when we were writing the script for this podcast. I remember doing a bit of research and coming across this UK drag queen, Son of a TuTu, who was born in London, and has created a Nigerian auntie drug persona to make the point that gay people exist everywhere. Even in countries where homosexuality or trans, is still illegal and in diasporic communities, like the Nigerian community in the UK.

Destiny:  

I loved finding out about Son of a TuTu. And that's just an amazing name. I like peculiarly about, like, you know, drag that exists beyond and outside of drag race, like drag race UK only started a few years ago, but there is a long history of drag in the UK. And I think I really experienced this at drag uni nights like they were so fun and entertaining.

Pip:  

 So true. Like it was a much looser feel. In terms of like the structure of it, it didn't feel so much that it was about stunting on other people, it was about like, celebrating expression, and just really, really being excited for the fact that someone was brave enough to get up on stage. 

Destiny:  

Yeah, the spaces were encouraging people to have fun to express themselves, no matter how long they done, drag, like, there was a range of people drag kings, hyper drag, like, it was such a fun space to be in.

Pip:  

Yeah, 100% like, I think, you know, our university drag knights, which were absolutely incredible. And one of the things that I missed the most about not having gone to uni this year, besides many other things. You know, they were the first experience I ever had of a fully queer-focused event. And, you know, if I really think about it, but sometimes I think I just assumed that a lot of events I went to pre-COVID were quite inclusive, like, simply because there were so many queer or Alt, people there. And when I'm talking about this, I'm really thinking about like poetry and jam events because that was mostly why I went but like socialising in those spaces would help me make organic connections with the queer community, but doesn't necessarily mean that they were 100%, queer-focused, and they were queer spaces, where people felt like it was theirs.

Destiny:  

 I feel like I kind of also took it for granted to I've tried to make more effort to find queer events now, but it's like, Are we just assuming everyone is queer? And like, that's not all recently, I found like, that's not inherently a bad thing. Because it is impart like, challenging heteronormativity of assuming everyone is straight and cis, but like, it is important that, like, do we feel safe in these like do queer people actually feel safe in these spaces?

Pip:  

Yeah, and also like conflating queerness with art, as well.

Destiny:  

Yeah, yes, yes, there's a big assumption of that.

Pip:  

 We're like, automatically, right? Like, we're automatically assuming that art spaces are going to be safe for queer people because it's been 'queered' as a occupation. And as a as an alternative to like, the capitalist system on the on the most part, like creating for creating sake is not being like a productive form of like, existing within society. So it's been queered as something as as an activity and as a space. which not only like, affords these spaces, like a form of protection that they're maybe not checked as much. But then also, it completely erases the fact that queer people exist in every in all occupations, and they thrive in a multiplicity of lifestyles, and that there is no such thing as like queer activity.

Destiny:  

Takes this assumption of like, everything can be reduced to a cliche or a stereotype. And that is bad. In terms of like safety, there's also an assumption that everybody is like, this feminist really, intersectional really inclusive, and even if like, the, even if we're gonna assume that, like, the standard is a really accepting feminist, that doesn't mean that it's going to be trans accepting or not racist, or like not Islamophobic. Like, there is so much that goes into making spaces inclusive and safe, that we shouldn't just go in with the assumption that all art spaces are going to be like inclusive, and loving and caring, because this is an active thing that people do inclusive spaces are actively made they're not just assumed.

Pip:  

Yeah, and it means that we have to challenge each other more, to create these kinds of spaces. And that means because you have to check it. And I know that people get tired with it, because it's exhausting. And it's exhausting to constantly feel like you're under scrutiny, but people are constantly scrutinising things for a reason. Because there's so much intergenerational trauma, there's so much, you know, cross-cultural trauma, in like how people have been approached, and just generally, like, it's sad, it's really sad, and it is hard, but we have to, we have to do that. But that being said, That being said, I still feel very blessed to be in an environment where I am even able to have these complaints and, and be able to criticise these spaces, because I actually have the fucking spaces. Like, so. There is an element of that where like, it's definitely, because of the stereotype. A lot of queer people do flock to these events, and even if they're not safe for them, I still have ended up meeting a lot of queer people because of that. And due to the stereotype, you know, so there's there's an element of that that's quite nice. It's a more it's more in some ways, it feels more organic way of meeting queer people where it's not it's not like, Oh, we are in a, we're in a gay bar, and then top and then there's more of an element of like sexuality, which is then obviously not as inclusive for people who are asexual or people who are put at like, potentially have like sensory issues and can't handle being around loud noise. You know, like these art spaces can be really nice. I mean, I even saw recently there's like a queer dinner party event that happens every month that I'm highkey going to go to in August like 100% I I've already decided we need to go together. Definitely, people in London wanting to meet more queer people not not wanting to go to an overtly sexual space or loud space or a place filled with loads of people, or maybe you just don't have any quick connections, I think it's a really good space to go to. 

Pip:  

And, you know, I really do value, the intersection of queerness and art in a lot of poetry scenes I've been to in London. You know, like I said before, I've met some really incredible queer artists in the same because of it.

Destiny:  

Yeah, I'm one of these incredible artists is Phoebe Wagner, a poet and theatre-maker from Croydon. She published her debut poetry pamphlet 'The Body You're In' with Bad Betty Press in 2019. She’s performed for organisations like the National Literacy Trust and Omnibus Theatre. Her work centres the politics in the political and community. She runs Crep Project @crep.project (On insta) an arts collective that explores trainer culture with young working-class people.

Pip:  

She's also a bisexual woman, and we're very lucky to have two of her amazing poems to listen to today. Super excited. 

Phoebe  

and on certain Sundays we’d pretend to be teenagers  only girls were allowed to play  

Auntie/Mum/Dad/Adult downstairs 

and that meant putting on make-up in the air  and shopping with empty bags 

we had to be older and shorten our skirts I would tell Davina what we were doing 

now we’re going to be drunk-party 

you have to drink port 

we had to make the fizzy happen by squinting  our ankles could brush when we fell 

I’d flick my dead Motorola open 

you call your boyfriend 

I’ll be him 

Davina would flip her Nokia 

I’m so drunk baaabbe 

she’d say into my phone 

I love you so muuuchh 

I’d say into hers 

our breath could rub 

to find her boyfriend 

we’d try out the baabbe 

on the soft of our lips 

on our tiptoes — muuuchh 

seeing what make-out looks like 

druunkk 

sideways to the mirror 

then under the covers 

making the tent 

we’d keep trying the fizzy 

making waves in the covers

 our wind-voices and giggles druunkkbaabbemucchh

shifting the Pure laundry powder air 

we’d want our tongues to meet for the first time to make us float above every Sunday we’d try again.

Pip:  

I mean, I'm such a fan of Phoebe's work. And her delivery is always just immaculate, like the feeling of intimacy feel so close. There was like an element of it where the intimacy was almost uncomfortable. Like I felt like I was intruding a little bit on this space. Which is amazing because like having these two goals like playing drunk, and those early stages of exploring sexuality, really, like brought me back to being that age myself and starting to become like, and you know, when I realised I was queer, starting to look back at experiences I've had as a child that were like that, where it's like, when I look back, I'm embarrassed because I was obviously x beer sensing queerness and my sexuality and like was expressing it through play. And there's a part of that where we know it's wrong, and it's private and we hide it.

Destiny:  

Yeah, it's, it's, it's really like cute and like, it does really feel like we're intruding on something really, like really nascent and something that these kids don't fully understand. But like, it's just kind of funny as well. And like, yeah, just like calling you up. I'll be your boyfriend, I'm so drunk like, I, I really love how she paints the picture of like, these two kids just playing around. And it's really beautiful. Like you can feel the youthful, the youthfulness, 

Pip:  

stunning 

Destiny:  

in the poem. Like it's really it. She's an amazing performer like, her voice and her breath, it feels like like hushing. Like, it's just, it's really amazing.

Pip:

  

Um, I mean, again, it's just credit to Phoebe, the amazing performer that she is and like how much work she's put into her craft to be able to deliver a poem that is not only so intimate, and so private, to be able to share that with people, but then to also be able to then recreate that atmosphere not only through her words, but through her performance and how control of breathwork and voice like, it's, it's beautiful, and you know, it. It's so it's so funny, like, how a lot of play, when you're that age, trying to figure out like sexuality, involves like playing with gender.

Destiny:  

Yeah

Pip:  

And, you know, being like, I'll be the boyfriend. And I remember doing stuff like that. And being like, you know, I'll be the boy character when we play out this thing, because the boy character gets to date the girl in the end. And it would be, you know, like, exploring that. And I always just kind of, like, I didn't think about it too much. But there was this like, again, like compulsory heterosexuality, where I was like, if I want to get the girl, I have to be the boy. 

Destiny:  

Yeah. Yeah. 

Pip:  

And it makes it safe. Because you're pretending. Like, I'm not serious. I'm just pretending. But actually, you are. You're in the early stages of experiencing what your sexuality is going to be like, and the fluidity of expression in the end. Yeah, my God, like,

Destiny:  

it was beautiful. Yeah, that's really beautiful. Yeah, I'm kind of thinking about how much space we get as adults to you pretend and play around with gender, and like sexuality. And like, before, before everything becomes, what? Before things are serious, like, where do I get the space to? Like, see how I feel expressing something other than what I meant to be? You know, I feel like there's not enough space to do that. Yeah.

Pip:  

Yeah, and that you can try things on, put them down. And like, it's, you should be able to have that freedom of expression doesn't need to be so serious all the time. can just be fine. 

Destiny:  

My gosh, I, I 100%. Feel that in terms of like, I remember when I went to like student pride for like, the second time. And like, usually I go there because like, it's nice. Having all of these businesses be like "here's free stuff come and work for us. You're gay, we love gay". Like, that's really fun. And they have like, loads of drag events and like singing and stuff, and I love that. But like, the second time I went, I went with Anthony. And like, I just was wearing Anthony's clothes on like, I felt like a different level of euphoria. Like, it felt really good. Really? Yeah. Like, just because, like, other than, like, wearing my dad's clothes when like, like, he didn't care. I didn't really have the space to like, actually go out and be like, I'm just going to wear boy clothes. And like, it'd be this fun thing. And like, Anthony just didn't care. Like it wasn't a big deal. Like I was just okay, Destiny's going on boy clothes today. And that was it. And like, I didn't feel like I had to be like, this is what I am now.

Pip:  

It wasn't a discussion.

Destiny:  

 Yeah, I could just be this today. And it doesn't matter. And that having that space to be like, I'm gonna do something fun and like, I'm gonna have fun with my friend and I'll be the your boyfriend today. Like, that just sounds really fun. And like, I wish I wish there was a bit more space to have that kind of like childhood play and fun.

Pip:  

Yeah, I mean, that's something that I've tried to incorporate a bit more in like, my own life dealing with like trauma and and identity and issues with that where I try I'm trying to reframe sex as play, too. And also that queers that queers. The experience. as well, because if you remove it from the, like, goal centred idea of like there's a start and a finish, and there is a right and a wrong way of doing it. Obviously, consent always involved that is the right way of doing it. But you know, like in terms of performance, like, as soon as you start queering that experience, it becomes so much fun. And when you remove the idea of like a goal, and it just becomes like fun and pleasure centred, it is so nice. It just becomes about like connecting with the other person. It's an activity without like, a finish. And it's so nice. It's so nice to give yourself that freedom.

Destiny:  

Definitely, like some of the best sexual experience, I've had is where I've been able to laugh. And like, I feel super comfortable with the person. 

Pip:  

You got to be able to laugh.

Destiny:  

 It's just brah like, everything's better where you can laugh. You feel like you're having fun like that. That is honestly the best the best.

Pip:  

Because that's the point that isn't it's supposed to be fun.

Destiny:  

 Definitely.

Pip:  

 You know, if you're a sexual person, sex is supposed to be fun. Like, and we should be allowed to have fun. And I think, you know, adults are allowed to play. It doesn't have to be creepy. 

Destiny:  

You should put that on a banner Adults are allowed to play. 

Pip:  

Oh my god. Watch out I'm gonna make a T-shirt soon. And we are actually super, super, super, super, super lucky. Because we have a second poem from Phoebe that we get to listen to called Biral. So here it is.

Phoebe  

Bi-ral 

Mum asked if I felt like my life was Eastenders because I cried a lot and I remember answering yes. 

Thinking no. 

It was there to make the insertion easy, comfortable and clean. 

He told me he doesn’t understand bisexuals because Why should you have more choice? 

When you put a tampon in water, it expands and leaves bits of cotton floating in you. 

Thinking Pink gin makes me feel like a woman. 

Thinking I want to go to Peckham and Netflix with her again.  

Thinking I fancy you because it’s unusual. 

The fibres stick to the vaginal wall. 

When she shows me where to go, 

I am a haze. 

She shows me where the satin is, 

where hot rain can pour. 

The motion of my hands chugs to a halt, 

thinking Independent and scientific studies have proven that it’s because

Pip:  

It's so good. It connects with me on such a level. You know that line in the poem really spoke to me were like society made me question my attraction to women so much. Where I thought like maybe it's just because it's something fresh and something new and like I should I'm not supposed to like you and that's why I like you. 

Destiny:  

That's really sad

Pip:  

Super depressing, right? And then I did and then I dated men for fucking eight years. So look who ended up losing me. Telling you, got a long term girlfriend changed my mind never going back.

Destiny:  

I love this conversation about like, bi-erasure. And like, I was reading Queer: A Graphic History, and like discussing the tension that bisexuality, like the existence of bisexuality, holds of like, being being attracted, or like my definition of being like attracted to your gender and other genders. And like, how, even with within the LGBT community, not like it's one like big conglomerate, but still within the LGBT community. And outside of it, there's so much biphobia like there is like biphobia, and that manifests in by bi-erasure, and like, people thinking that bisexual people are weird or that they're, like, really promiscuous, and like, they're just so there's so much, but like this poem and like the funniness, the, like the tender, lovely moments of it, like, it's such a funny poem. And yet so sad. It just works so well. 

Pip:  

Phoebe has a real knack for that. 

Pip:  

Yes yes

Pip:  

like, a real knack for creating atmosphere and mood because like listening to it, I was laughing especially like the bits where, you know, there's like a genetic component to rolling up your genes. I still came away from the poem with this, like, pulling sensation like this, this, this sadness, this kind of like longing for something for something tangible, you know, like something that I could hold on to I think like Phoebe in these two poems that she's given us, she she, she denies us solidity like a solidity like a groundedness there's something quite dreamy about the experience, which is, for me, I feel like it really, really resonates with how like I experienced the internal world, like myself, and like how I've related to my experience of gender and sexuality and queerness in that it often feels very intangible, very, like cotton floss, where you don't really know like, when you touch it, is it going to solidify or is it going to disintegrate? And you just thought, I think Phoebe has such skill in that she's able to make something so tender. Yeah. And so heartfelt. I feel very blessed I get to listen to it. And this is the kind of stuff I want to hear at poetry events.

Destiny:  

 Me too me too

Pip:  

 Yeah,

Destiny:  

 I want I want more of this.

Pip:  

 I was gonna say I just feel very blessed that we got to listen to such beautiful poems. And really, I think I'm just very grateful.

Destiny:  

That was a great conversation I loved, loved Phoebe's poetry.  Thank you so much Phoebe for letting us feature your amazing poetry. Follow her on instagram at @phoebesarahwagner to see some of their amazing experimental poems on mushrooms and micelia and you can find her latest work @crep.project and a recent experimental mix with Tatenda Matvsai on @_earwax

 

Pip:  

Just to mention the queer dinner club is @queerthetable_lnd on Insta. And that concludes the second episode of Creating Dangerously here on Amplify. We wanna give a big shout to the RISE collective who have given us the opportunity to kickstart our podcast, you can follow them on Instagram at @therisecollectiveuk.

Destiny:  

And as we go forward we wanted to give a big big shout out to Patrick Hemington who made our transition theme music for Creating Dangerously. 

 The intro is gonna sound like this:

 [intro music plays]

Destiny:  

and the transitions like this: [transition music plays] You can find him on SoundCloud and Spotify as PATRICIUS and on Instagram as @pxtricius 

Pip:  

And of course, we have to plug ourselves so go give Destiny’s Instagram a follow @poetryndestiny and you can find my artwork on insta at @hello_cactus_flower. It’s been sick and we can’t wait to bring you more words from more artists in and about London.

 

Destiny:  

You've been amazing. Thanks for listening, this has been Creating Dangerously. It’s been amazing platforming with Rise and we’re so excited for what the future will bring!

Arden:

This podcast was brought to you by the RISE Collective. Thank you to Mahla Axon, Amy Parkes, Kyle Blackburn, Sarisha Kumar, Max Sanderson, and Claude Barbé Brown. Music by Pembroke. We would also like to thank the Young Londoners Fund for making this series of AMPLIFY possible. If you’d like to find out more about RISE and support our work, visit our website www.therisecollective.org.uk, or follow us on Twitter @RiseAmplify or Instagram @therisecollectiveuk. See you next time on AMPLIFY.